Anyone want to shed a tear for the Big 12 before it vanishes from the college landscape?
I didn't think so.
The Big 12 never won our hearts. It was a collection of programs - some good, some mediocre, and a couple who couldn't have won the WAC football championship in a career year. There was a collection, but no connection.
Its older brother, the Big Eight, had shortcomings, too. But it gave us college football's longest running dynasty and one of its greatest rivalries.
From 1969 through 2001, Nebraska never won fewer than nine games in a single season, a testament to its power as well as its conference patsies. Oklahoma often capitalized on the conference's imbalance as much as the Cornhuskers did.
If I could watch one college game that didn't include an SEC team, I would pick Nebraska vs. Oklahoma in their prime. Remember all their late-November, head-on collisions with national championship implications?
I covered one in Norman, Okla., in 1985. The stadium was solid red, and the color theme extended, in part, to the press box, where one Nebraska "journalist" arrived in an all-red cowboy outfit, accentuated by a couple of toy six-shooters. One of my greatest literary regrets is not reading his account of the game.
Nebraska vs. Oklahoma: That's how I want to remember the Big Eight. As for its successor, forget it. The Big 12 had Texas, Oklahoma and a Nebraska fallen on hard times. But it proved to be nothing more than a fly-by-night band of programs on their way to somewhere else.
Nebraska is headed for the Big 10. Colorado is off to the Pac-10 and could be joined by Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech and maybe Texas A&M. Together, they could form a supposed "super conference."
You might remember that term was once applied to the Big 12, and to the ACC when it added the likes of Miami and Florida State. Yet neither conference has surpassed the SEC, which has produced the last four national champions and a television contract second only to the NFL.
Maybe if the Pac-10 can pull off its best-case alliance, it will negotiate a superior television deal and challenge the SEC on the field as well. But the SEC will still have something that not even a super conference does.
Football matters more in the SEC. And you don't have to be watching Alabama vs. Florida to appreciate that. There's also a shared history that no merger can create. Arkansas and South Carolina have been in the league since 1992, yet they're still eyed suspiciously by the old guard. Everybody else goes way back.
That long-standing familiarity has forged a family, albeit a feuding one. We are reminded of the competitive bond when fans chant "S-E-C" as one of their teams is putting the finishing touches on a national championship.
Expansion won't change that. Even if the SEC adds more teams, it will have 10 schools that have been in the league since 1932. So it will remain a tradition-rich league with a handful of programs capable of playing for the national title in football. Don't underestimate the significance of that.
As for the expanded Pac-10, it might not look much different at the top than the Big 12 if it absorbs half the Big 12's schools. The Pac-10 is balanced when Southern California isn't at the top of its game. Given USC's NCAA probation sentence, it won't be anywhere near the top of its game for the next few years.
In the meantime, don't expect to see the balance of old if the Sooners and Longhorns join the Pac-10. Until the Trojans are whole again, Texas and Oklahoma would dominate the league.
So perhaps the best of the Big 12 won't go away after all. Maybe it will just go West.
John Adams may be reached at 865-342-6284 or adamsj@knoxnews.com.
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Comments » 51
AWOLVol writes:
Since moving out west is has taken me a while to realize just how little college football matters out here. I'd say John Adams is right in his assessment. It's sad, really, but I recently got a hug from a Gator fan in Reno because she was just so happy to meet someone from another SEC school. Strange days indeed...
AND_Blue writes:
Hear, hear! Let's inject some sanity into this process. I'll admit I had some initial interest in the whole SEC expansion hype, and I might have even approached panic at some point about Texas and Oklahoma going to the PAC-10 and Nebraska going to the Big 10, but the reality is this: dividing all the Big 12 teams between the PAC-10 and Big 10 just makes it easier for the SEC to win national titles. Before, we had to worry about a no-loss Ohio State and a no-loss USC or no-loss Texas shutting out the SEC champ from the BCS title game. Now there will be one less patsy-laden conference to compete with. Now Ohio State may actually have to play two real games in the regular season. Now USC won't get a free pass to the NC. Waiting for a Stanford/UCLA/Whoever miracle every year may be a thing of the past.
So rejoice, SEC fans. This is good.
And, I'll say as a Gator fan that I'm severely disappointed in Texas. At one point I almost liked Texas. They were a lot like UF, in many ways. But at some point, the Texas folks left the south. They've traded in their boots for Birkenstocks. Texas has become the University of California at Austin. I'd say screw them and the horse they rode in on, but I doubt anybody at that school remembers how to ride a horse.
Texas A&M is like us. If anybody gets an invitation from the SEC, it should be the Aggies.
And that's about all the thinking on the subject I care to do.
chaos001 writes:
"That long-standing familiarity has forged a family, albeit a feuding one. We are reminded of the competitive bond when fans chant "S-E-C" as one of their teams is putting the finishing touches on a national championship."
...and this is why we're ultimately better than everyone else.
OrangeBeer writes:
We all know the SEC is the best conference in the country... It appears the rest of the country realizes it now, and is trying to play catch up. Copy us all you want, we are the real deal.
WilliamMoore writes:
Mizzou and the SEC make a good fit
(This becomes especially viable (only?) IF Texas & OU go to Pac10 AND Big10 doesn’t take MU)
+ Two large, unshared market media markets: St. Louis & Kansas City.
+ Seven new media markets in all incl. Springfield, Columbia/JC, Joplin/Pittsburg, Cape/Harrisburg/Marion, Hannibal/Quincy
+ Entire state of 6 million people (w/o Div. 1 FB competition) – only Fla. And ga. Larger.
+ Historic border state (like Ky) w/ similar cultural & political demographics
+ Potential natural rivalries with Ark., Ky., Ole Miss (esp. good at giving Ark close-by school). Possible A&M rivalry if they join, too.
+Geographic fit; shares borders w/ three SEC states (Ky., Tenn. And Ark.); travel to most distant campuses (Fla., SC) close as Boulder or Austin.
+ Impressive 20-7-1 FB record vs. SEC in both regular season and bowl games (7-1). Only Tenn. and MU have never played.
+Prestigious basketball program; would elevate entire conference.
+Historic football power in the ‘60s experiencing steady resurgence (5 straight bowl games, #4 in ’08) and enormous ongoing potential.
+Great facilities, comparable or better (basketball) in most sports.
+National Top 25 success in non-rev sports: baseball, softball, gymnastics, soccer, swimming, which are also strong in SEC.
+Increased academic reputation w/ AAU affiliation (like Florida and Vandy).
+Campus enrollment of 30000+ and system-wide of 60000+, making it one of largest in conference.
+Increased corporate sponsorship potential for SEC network (Busch, Sprint, Monsanto, Hallmark, EDJ, AG Edwards, Scottrade, etc.)
arkyvol writes:
And blue wrote, "...I'll say as a Gator fan that I'm severely disappointed in Texas. At one point I almost liked Texas. They were a lot like UF, in many ways. But at some point, the Texas folks left the south. They've traded in their boots for Birkenstocks. Texas has become the University of California at Austin. I'd say screw them and the horse they rode in on, but I doubt anybody at that school remembers how to ride a horse."
not entirely true. i've been looking at some of the texas boards. the average horns fan is anything but enthusiastic about this move. it won't be long before the snobs at places like berkely and stanford remind the horns, that they are still (gasp!) southerners, and in their estimation, congenitally inferior. i really don't think this is gonna work the way the powers that be in austin think it will. and by the way, the feeling in college station is almost unanimous for the s.e.c.
dvhill100 writes:
One of the downsides of the realignment is the loss of traditional rivalries. I remember the OU-NU of the Big 8, TN-Auburn before the SEC split, etc. Yes, other rivalries can be created like FL-UT (although TN needs to win more to make it a true rivalry). I just can't see the need to add more teams to the best conference in the nation. None of the more likely teams mentioned really bring much to the table. Texas A&M might, but if they come, I have not heard of who else would come to even out the numbers.
kdaff51 writes:
Its all about the money. Where does the conference get the money? TV of course. Where does TV get the money? Advertising of course. So naturally it is the TV market that drives college football.
Looking at it from a business standpoint rather than a fan you see a totally different picture. That is why you gain nothing by adding Fla State, Ga Tech, Miami, Clemson.......We are already in those markets. So add the Texas market and look what you have!
jcherrie#219531 writes:
As a gator fan - you are my mortal enemy. However, I feel obligated to give a (somewhat) intelligent reply to a (somewhat) intelligent post. Furthermore, we are both concerned with best interests of the SEC.
I agree with your post. Texas A&M had a long-standing rivalry with Arkansas in the old Southwest Conference - and has great traditions - midnight yell practice, bonfire, standing through games, hating the "fake UT" in their "fake Orange". Furthermore they were at one time coached by the 2nd best coach in SEC history (2nd to The General that is).
It would be great to have both Texas and Texas A&M in the conference - but this conference is only big enough for 1 UT (even though it's plenty big enough for 2 Tigers and 2 Bulldog teams).
While they don't have as many pretty girls as the fake UT does on 6th street - we've got enough in Knoxville (and my wife is jealous enough anyway).
jcherrie#219531 writes:
Mizzou is a good fit - and a natural rival versus Arkansas.
AND_Blue writes:
I buy all the Mizzou arguments, and I'll add another: BBQ.
So, in the interest of two road trips with great BBQ, I'll vote to add Texas A&M and Mizzou.
BreweryVol writes:
My problem with Mizzou is that they are subpar in both basketball and football. I have another idea. How about A & M and Virginia Tech? Virginia is a rich state for recruiting and TV market. Plus Tech is in the top 25 year in and year out in football, basketball, and baseball.
Absolut_Vol writes:
Personally, the whole thing makes me sick. College football is not about tradition anymore. It's about tv, web and sponsorship dollars. Samething ruined NASCAR.
Couchdummy writes:
I second any conference strengthening or realignment that requires the Big 10 schools to have some tougher regular season competition in order to be in NC consideration. Even moreso, I hope Notre Dame gets left with back row concert tickets considering all the favoritism afforded them by the media and the BCS power brokers!
CoverOrange writes:
VolnotHamfan is right, it is about the money. That is why the Big Ten is likely done expanding after bringing in Nebraska. They are already the money leader. The Pac-10 is desperate to increase revenue being last among the big conferences. They may beg the Texas schools but they'll probably end up with BYU or San Diego St. I would bet that the Big 12 will keep themselves together by stealing TCU, UTEP, Tulsa, or SMU from other conferences. 12 will be the number, not 16. Just a prediction. Army and Navy should join the Big East along with Marshall and maybe force Notre Dame to do something.
Lastly, with the reorgs of conferences, can anyone come up with a better naming system than starting with "Big"?
orangecountyvols writes:
We know how money is the driving force in all the expansion talks. Aside from the constant talk about the markets, the unfortunate thing is the long standing rivalries being tossed aside. We've always heard how the competition in the SEC results in beating each other up and how difficult it is to go through the schedule without a loss somewhere.
So imagine Texas and the others heading to the PAC 10? One would think they'd beat each other up there too. On the other hand, Texas and Oklahoma may believe they will find life easier there and will rule the roost.
Geographically speaking, it seems so far fetched. Next thing we know California will join the Big East or South Florida becoming a member of the WAC. Exaggeration. I know.
Still, economically speaking, it'll be interesting to get a take on fans having to travel from Austin, Norman, etc, ( IN ALL SPORTS ) plus vice versa........ to and from Seattle, Eugene, Corvallis etc. Better bring their checkbook.
VOLume27 writes:
Blacksburg/Roanoke ain't the TV market to covet. It's Tidewater/Beltway-Occupied Va./Richmond. A week ago I mentioned the Twerps as a stretch, fallback position should both Va. Teck and NCSU say no. BUT adding Maryland w/o a Carolina school would NOT add Virginia TVs state-wide.
The KU point is more inane. Why add KU for the KC market when you can add Mizzou and get both KC and St. Louis? And so what if KU won the Orange Bowl a few years back? Boise St. won the Fiesta Bowl a few years back -- why don't you add them?
"Miami has about 8 mill people. . . . That gives you a big mkt for advertisers." -- YES, and those Miami TV sets already are being serviced quite nicely BY THE SEC VIA THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA.
sheesh. . . .
VolsINFan writes:
I agree with your comments about how NASCAR was ruined by this same sort of money grab. I'll also raise you the NBA for selling out as well.
I personally hate the idea of all of these conferences expanding, but if it brings us closer to a playoff in College Football--then I am all for it.
AtLeastMyTeamHasPerfectSeasons writes:
This seems screwed up. PAC-10 means Pacific-10. How does schools in the middle of the country fit into a PACIFIC conference?
Guess new conference names would make sense then.
Ringside writes:
I prefer quality over quantity anytime. Only two teams can play for the national championship.
orangecountyvols writes:
One more thing about the SEC in all this. We hear daily talks from the Big 12, PAC 10, and the Big 10.
Eerily, the SEC is very quiet about the whole matter.
Wonder what the thinking is? If the SEC should expand, do they already have a plan? Or, are we waiting to see what the other conferences do and if we should then decide to expand, are we relegated to "taking what's left?"
Only consideration I am hearing so far is Texas A & M, which would be the good rival for Arkansas. Once upon a time, I also heard Oklahoma had shown interest in the SEC. Oh well, Tuesday should give us a better idea of what's going to happen. Thinking on a positive note, hopefully it will eventually be a good thing.........but if not, we've probably seen football
especially, having had its better days.
VOLume27 writes:
WilliamMoore makes one hell of a convincing argument for Mizzou as a West addition.
And for others on this board who are shocked . . . SHOCKED! . . . about the motives: Yeah, it's all about the benjamins. Filthy lucre.
That's why, should the SEC decide to (or be forced to) expand, there are targeted schools and non-targeted schools.
For the money, my names for the targeted: Texas A&M, Missouri, Va. Tech, NCST, maybe OU. And obviously you'd like to balance the additions east/west.
No money, no target: Ga. Tech, Clemson, Fla. State, Miami, Louisville, KU, South Florida, MTSU, Memphis, Duke, Wake, BC, Rutgers, Baylor, Southern Miss., UAB, Carson Newman, Sewanee, Emory, Cumberland University, Tenn. St., etc.
Winner-Take-All: Texas (but Texas would try to take over the SEC administratively and money-wise).
And should the SEC declare global thermonuclear war on the ACC (or should the ACC implode): UNC.
The TRUE BIG BIG MONEY fantasy scenario would be the addition of both Texas and UNC.
scvols writes:
Just think if you are a Oklahoma fan and live in Oklahoma and having to drive to UCLA to a game.
thevoice writes:
As long as we keep our SEC members intact, I don't really care what happens to other conferences. We've produced the most dominant teams in the country in the last 15-20 years. Other conferences can TRY to play catch-up by addition/attrition, but it won't happen, not even if you combine the PAC 10, Big 10, Big 12, ND, Big East, ACC, etc. into one conference. 'Nough said.
AppreciativeAlum writes:
Could the SEC add A&M, Baylor, Kansas and TCU?
They don't diss and get enough texas schools to make a market there. If Texas comes to the SEC they will never play in a national championship game again. TCU is good at football.
tnsportsman writes:
Leave the SEC AS IS!
The SEC will never have a single school/football team wanting to jump to another conference, you would have to bomb one out, LOL.
The SEC just paid out 18 million to each school on TV dollars and that goes up every year in the 15 year contract. (Actually this started it all with the other conferences)
The SEC is in the drivers seat of the college football bus. We can stop and let people (Non SEC Schools) off anytime they want.
The SEC has obtained both the Big Money and saved our Geographic Integrity as the SEC.
Regardless of how many teams are in the PAC 10 and Big 10, the SEC will contiune to be in the hunt for National Championships!
IMO, this gives the SEC a real advantage on recruiting in football and basketball. It's call History and Stability in the Southeastern States that are always in the Top 10 best places to live in the US.
GO VOLS, WE ARE UT!
orangecountyvols writes:
Scvols,
As I mentioned before.............try driving from Oklahoma to Oregon and/or Washington. If and when it happens, there will be some who will wish they had never done it.........and there will be some angry people as in when Va Tech, Miami and B C left the Big East and came to the ACC. ( Schools such as Baylor, Kansas St and Iowa State. )
Still, our interests are the SEC........the best conference, now and always.
BrewerTL writes:
I live in ACC country and can tell you this happens a lot. All SEC fans over here in eastern NC stick together hard core, watching games together, etc. There's a lot of good natured trash talking, but we all LOVE our conference. It's simply the best college football in America, for a whole lot of reasons.
thevoice writes:
Wondering if someone could explain how the SEC would be better by expanding. All it comes down to is how much $ is paid to its members. Why would a team join any conference if by doing so it would add more $ in the pockets of other schools? One possible exception: Texas. Sure, the SEC would get a bigger TV contract, but it has to be diluted more for the addition(s), leaving about the same $ for the other schools before an addition. In my mind, the only thing that matters is how much $ is pocketed by the SEC's member schools. So, just renegotiate the TV package every so often. Are GA Tech, Mizzu, and others going to add $ to UT by joining? Hardly. The only way I see expansion as beneficial to the SEC is if we get Texas or ND.
gohawks1 writes:
The PACIFIGULF 16 has a nice ring to it.
Ralph_Crampton writes:
Although I am and have always been an SEC fan, I have always been fascinated by the Notre Dame hold on the many fans around the nation. Its hard to explain, but no other college team can be as magical as the . I have traveled the country and not one college comes close to the popularity of the "Fighting Irish". And this goes for the 30 professional teams in football. The Yankees in baseball are somewhat comparable..but even they are far behind in popularity to the Irish. I can't explain it..nobody can...its not religion like one would think...{Like I once did). It must be magical. That is why Notre Dame can be independent in football...and own their own network...the only team in sports that is able to accomplish that feat. You might call them the untouchables.
VolunteerLifer writes:
Yeah, I can't see a conference that has teams on both sides of the Rockies staying together for very long. I've lived in Texas and traveled alot, and I can tell you Texans and Oklahomans have nothing in common with people in California, Oregon, and Washington. The people on the west coast are not going to be any more inclined to tune in to Texas Tech vs. Oklahoma State any more than they used to. And the people in Texas are not going to tune in to see Oregon vs Oregon State any more than they used to.
TennHillbilly writes:
Heck, invite Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and OK State and be done with it. I don't see any other teams that would bring anything to the conference. But do it by end-of-business tomorrow or don't expand at all.
AtLeastMyTeamHasPerfectSeasons writes:
And 7 National Champions out of the last 17 seasons. And an 8th team (Auburn '04) that should have played for one. Not too shabby.
TennHillbilly writes:
The more things change, the more they stay the same.....
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/...
murrayvol writes:
Missouri....in the unlikely event that the Big 10 gives them thumbs down. Mizzou and A&M would give Arkansas a couple of natural rivals.
Likely a moot point because I doubt the Big 10 will let Missouri slip away. And I've heard nothing about SEC interest in Mizzou.
All will be revealed....very soon.
murrayvol writes:
Then think about this.
Expansion virtually guarantees a rethinking of the BCS which IMO will lead to a playoff format of some kind....at least 8 teams. Sooooo there'll be plenty of room for 2 loss PAC 17 or Big 16 teams in that scenario.
And add to that a seismic shift of politcal clout to the "Super Conferences".
murrayvol writes:
Huge?? Tremendous?
murrayvol writes:
Trust me. They'll do it.
AND_Blue writes:
If it's about TV revenue---and it is---I don't see how dumping the Big 12 into the Pac-10 helps them. We love football in the SEC, so we watch the other SEC games after our team's game is over. Our TV's stay on football all Saturday, and with DVRs all Sunday to boot. Heck, I even watch Vandy play whenever they get on television.
The west coast doesn't love football. Texas fans are crowing about how dominant the Pac-10 is in other sports. Well, nobody in Texas watches volleyball or lacrosse, or whatever BMX events Pac-10 schools compete in, and they aren't about to start. And after Oregon fans finish applauding the fashion feats of their latest football uniforms, they turn off the television and go bike riding. And after USC fans leave the Coliseum, they skip into the nearest drag queen show, or whatever people do in LA. They don't watch more football. They sure as heck ain't going to go to their RV, eat BBQ, and watch the Texas/Arizona game.
VolunteerLifer writes:
It's 1300 road miles from OK City to LA, 2,200 to Seattle. A little further from Austin. That's alot of travel time and expense for those athletes to get to their competitions. I find it hard to believe they would rather join the Pac 10 conference than try to salvage the Big 12 in a new form. Texas and Oklahoma schools with West Coast schools? It just looks like a very unnatural alliance.
Southland writes:
Texas and Ok are as southern as any state. Texas is Tennessee's largest county. The people there are like us. The leadership at those universities must be completely out of touch with the people. I wonder if the SEC is even trying to get these teams. If they are going somewhere it should be with the SEC. The Pac 10 is in no way a fit for any of the schools they are courting except Col. and who cares about them anyway. The SEC may pick up Mizz. and Texas A&M and that will be fun but the big Texas and OK teams are missing out and they will regret it. As someone posted the elitist on the left coast will remind them every chance they get that they are uncouth barbarians that vote conservative and believe in going to church and other such items that is beneath the west coasters. Someone is making a huge mistake.
marinevol writes:
Maybe the SEC will have to do something to stay competitive in the TV market, but I sure hope they don't resort to bringing in mediocre programs just to expand the TV market. Please, stop this talk about Missouri and Kansas schools. Some people are even talking about TCU and Baylor?? If your goal is to establish conference parity by bringing the SEC down to the level of the Big 10, Pac 10 and ACC, then bring in Missouri, TCU, Kansas and Baylor. If you want to expand while keeping the status of the SEC as the dominant conference, take Texas A & M and an equivalent school and stop there.
VolunTenMile writes:
Yes, Big definitely is outdated. Still available: The Bigger, Biggest, Humongous, Bodacious, Bootylicious, Bigbucks, and Smarter-than-you 16/18/20/... Conference
usnavyvolfaninva_still_getting_paid writes:
I would love for Texas to come to the SEC, if for no other reason than to finally show my wife (native Texan) who the REAL UT is!
usnavyvolfaninva_still_getting_paid writes:
AND_Blue...
Hey, what's wrong with Oregon uniforms, besides the fact it looks like a highlighter pen exploded in the team's laundry... LOL
AppreciativeAlum writes:
A&M cares about their students.
POTSVol writes:
I've always thought a good name for the BigTen would be The Great Lakes Conference. Since most are situated around them anyway. It's unique and adds a regional pride to the area just like we're proud of being in the Southeast. I'd stay away from Midwest Conference cause that would look like they were copying us anyway. LOL
As for the former Pac-10, I read on another post elsewhere to just call it the PAC, The Pacific and Central Conference. Or PACC if you really want the word conference in there. Interesting thought if this all plays out like we're hearing.
WilliamMoore, I can see why you thing Mizzou would be an enticing prospect. Several of your points could make a good argument but I don't think Slive would go after them if he still had a chance to get Texas, Texas A&M, or Oklahoma. I think they would be a good second choice, though.
I would like to see Virginia Tech join which could give UT another instant rival, even better with them so close to us. Battle of the Cumberland Pass? LOL, couldn't resist. UNC, and NCState could be two good options as well and bring all of the North Carolina markets. Battle for the Smoky's? As in the park, not our mascot for those that wouldn't get it. I know, another battle but it's all in fun.
All in all, I don't see the SEC trying to get too far outside of where we are now. NC, VA, maybe WVU in the east, TX, OK and MO in the west. Any school anywhere else would be a waste of time.
orangecountyvols writes:
It's one thing to be talking about getting ANY particular team to join the SEC. All of us have our favorites to come aboard. However...........just because we think Texas, Oklahoma, Va Tech, Clemson, whomever is the choice of the fans, even the presidents/regents/trustees, AD's etc,..........there's no guarantee we'd even succeed in getting all or even one of them. This almost seems like choosing sides in a pickup game.
In a way it's almost like picking your final 4 in basketball.............we'll see how close we come to being correct.
The talk previously about Notre Dame? Hmmmm. I lost respect for them years ago due to their being the only school to have their own television network, along with their padding the win loss column with the schedule that basically had only several decent opponents ( Mich, Mich State, USC, occasionally Pitt, or Stanford. ) Plus, they weren't willing to tread into a conference where the competition stepped up. Yes, great tradition, nice fight song, etc, etc, but these are some of my feelings re the Irish.
By Tuesday, the smoke should clear a lot on all this.....but bets are against our seeing Texas in the SEC. Not many people want to make a living playing the likes of Alabama, Florida, LSU, Georgia, S Carolina, Auburn, Tennessee ( soon to return ) etc. Changing future schedules is going to be like a Chinese fire drill.
When all is said and done, we may all be very surprised !
murrayvol writes:
Kinda like a box of chocolates.
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